Finished listening to Dune, or A Messiah and His Mom.
Finished listening to Dune, or A Messiah and His Mom. It was always a hole in my sci-fi knowledge. World building is some of the best I've read. The characters being aware they are controlling people with religion when they know it's all made up or been planned is fantastic. Paul is interesting as far as "great white hopes" go. He becomes a hero and saves...hmm...himself? He gets revenge? If he'd died things would have been bad on Arrakis, but now the Fremen's religion spreads across the universe killing billions. Happy ending?
Jessica was my favorite character, the most sympathetic by far. I liked her weird little daughter, but the idea isn't fleshed out that much. Maybe in the sequels?
Gurney was great. The most D&D of all the characters.
Gurney Halleck was my favourite.
ReplyDeleteBut Paul doesn't stop with this victory, he goes deeply native until outworlders can't really relate to him any more. That's where his sister shines - she, while Sietch-born, is more international. He, an outworlder, embraces the sand. But the most extreme character development is another... you wouldn't believe me if I spoiled.
I just read it for the first time recently too. And yeah I agree with you, I found the most interesting stuff to be the bene gesserits and the politicking between houses/guilds and the emperor. Paul and his messiah antics were kind of lame but I suppose that all acts a vehicle for presenting the other stuff.
ReplyDeleteI read four parts, the fifth makes such a jump into the future it shook me off a bit, but one day I'll try to catch up.
ReplyDeleteIdaho is a complicated guy.
I like how the ending is basicly just a giant diss track with Paul, Jessica and Chani styling all over the Emperor, rev mother, and princess Iruleian.
ReplyDeleteYou gonna keep going with the series?
ReplyDeleteI really should reread it.
ReplyDeleteI stopped with this one, which I thought was amazing, because people seemed to think the sequels were a let down in comparison.
ReplyDeleteMy coworker is a Lebanese guy, and he was saying he found it hard to get into it because all the freeman sci-fi words are just Arabic.
Ramanan S that's because the whole thing was in part meant as a warning about letting Arabs control Oil.
ReplyDeleteIs it a warning or a criticism of like imperial expansion into the Middle East?
ReplyDeleteRalph Mazza Hardly a warning, more like a promotion. Firstly, the Fremen appear to be the only faction in the Universe with moral grounding (despite some corruption later),
ReplyDeletesecondly the Jihad turns out to be important for the future of humankind.
Yeah, they seem to be written too sympathetically. Does that change later?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, yeah, my friends complaint was basically, “this isn’t ground breaking sci-fi, he’s just writing about arabs.” I asked why can’t it be both! Ha.
Ramanan S No, they remain the most likeable people in the universe. They become too rich and most lose the desert vibe along the centuries that follow, especially those who live in cities. But at core they remain cool.
ReplyDeleteAnyone watch Lawrence of Arabia? Because that is my favorite film of all time and I don't think I've seen any discussion about parallels and/or differences between the two.
ReplyDeleteI would read the rest just to see how wild it gets. I read the whole thing every few years. The sequels aren't a letdown, they just end up being very different.
ReplyDeleteI'll probably give the next one a go based on this thread.
ReplyDeleteI re-tag you in my old dune post.
ReplyDeleteRamanan S can I get tag? Am I already in it?
ReplyDeleteBooks 2 & 3 are solid sequels. Book 4 then jumps a thousand years into the future. Books 5 & 6 jump another thousand or so years into the future. Where there is a common character and common factions (e.g. the bene gesserit), the latter three books can feel very disconnected from the first three.
ReplyDeleteI am sad that so many people are giving away the time jump with 4 because it seriously threw me for a loop the first time.
ReplyDeleteOh, sorry... I had it in the blurb on the jacket of the book. I never noticed it was to be a surprise. :O
ReplyDeleteditto for the tag Ramanan S
ReplyDeleteIt's not that good a thread. Ha.
ReplyDeleteAndreas Habicher your reading is way more generous than mine. I read Dune as being pretty clearly "do you want civilization toppling religious jihad? Because letting the Fremen control the Spice Arabs control the Oil, is how you get Civilization toppling Jihad.
ReplyDeleteGranted there were no real good guys on any side in that book, but I certainly don't think Paul and the Fremen count as heroes.
Ralph Mazza Errr.. seriously? I really can't agree. The moment Paul met the woman servant in the palace while his father still lived - first night on Arrakis I think - I was 100% sure the Fremen were the good guys. Liet Kynes and the others only cemented this impression further, and I never doubted it. And the Jihad clearly ensures humanity's survival. It is necessary.
ReplyDeleteSorry. I am in camp Fremen through and through and I am surprised that another reading is even possible. Apparently I am heavily biased.
So weird. I mean, the Harkonnen, the Navigators, the Sardaukar, even the Bene Gesserit -- they are all shitty people out for their own petty, backstabbing gain, and for power. But the Fremen are open minded, give shelter to straggling Atreides, and are prepared to give life and water for the cause. What's not to like?
ReplyDeleteTo read it as a warning of the Arabs, one would have to prefer the Harkonnen? Impossible.
Andreas Habicher I think the book also makes clear that everyone else was terrible also, a reflection of centuries of Ottoman, British, French, and later American and Soviet fuckery in the middle East. Also a cautionary tale..."do you want to turn these otherwise peaceful people into hostile religious zealots, because this is how you get hostile religious zealots."
ReplyDeleteTrying to avoid too much spoilery about the sequels, but I think what Paul and the Fremen did after they won Arrakis pretty much eliminates them from "good guy" status. And the only justification for it is that prophecy says the alternative is even worse...which, any time prophecy is used to justify terror it gets an "oh, how convenient" reaction from me.
Andreas Habicher I have no idea if it was meant to be! I just remember going in cold and being all "whaaaat"
ReplyDelete